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Welcome back everyone to another episode of Adventures in DevOps.

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And before we get into the episode today, I just want to introduce the sponsor, is
Incident.io.

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Anyone building a product that promises a high SLA like we are knows that remediation as
soon as possible is absolutely paramount.

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Out-of-date runbooks result in wasted effort at the crucial moment.

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Often mature tech companies have told us that the real challenge is that no two incidents
are exactly alike.

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And that's one of the reasons I'm appreciative that Incident.io is sponsoring today's
episode.

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because they've got this awesome technology that dynamically assembles incident-specific
runbooks

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so you know that you're following the most up-to-date steps based on your team's actual
workflows and in the context of what's actually broken.

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They're connected to all the popular tools in the space and I can honestly say they're the
all-in-one incident management platform.

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And for those paying attention, their founding engineer was on our podcast very recently
and it was a fantastic episode where we deep dived into their cutting edge technology.

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As always, the links will be in the description.

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And now back to the show.

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today I've brought in our guest, Elise Stanley Breval,

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VP and head of UX and customer journeys at Unleash.

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What's the difference between VP and head?

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To me it's about like who can I get access to when we discuss and when we do chats with
customers and stuff like that.

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VP is closer to the management team and is also focusing more on revenue, on risk
mitigation, joining leadership to make sure that we are setting the goals and the

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expectations.

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You know, I think that in each sort of micro organization within even a larger company,
these titles end up getting very confused very, very quickly.

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And some companies have believed like head is like the top right under say CTO or CEO and
VP is just the title you give to some of your sales folks.

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So they sound important on their sales calls.

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And unfortunately, this is also the same when it comes to customer experience and customer
journey, that the better title, the more important.

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It also means that I actually have the option and the possibilities to actually go in and
have an opinion on what's going on in all the different departments.

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So very often I am the annoying lady in the room, come and sneak peek and make sure that
we can actually deliver this world-class experience in all the touch points.

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And

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So you have almost, I think I looked at your LinkedIn, almost 30 years in basically UX and
user experience and just focusing on delivering what I assume is the best products to your

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users as possible.

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Yeah, to me, like, I entered this space even before we had a name, before we were called
UXers, after I left university, before Millennium.

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It was still not normal that we were discussing UX.

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It was very much like developers coming in Deciding what to build what to do and then you
have the customers and your user decide and they just needed to adopt into the experience

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had no clue what's going on on the screens, but but that was how it was that back then so
my first years.

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I was more into business process optimization.

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I tried to understand better like

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from the customer perspective, always advocate for the users,

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from what you've described in sort of your experiences that good UX is blurring the lines
with product management and really they're both these roles or really facets of an

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organization are getting down to building the right thing.

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And it's interesting because in almost every episode of this podcast, we end up talking
about how it's one of the hardest things to do.

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And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there's like a lot of distractions that are
keeping

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organizations from actually being able to deliver the right thing today.

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And it's interesting that the way you talk about it, I've always sort of segregated some
of those responsibilities as product management and some of the other ones as UX team or

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UX researchers.

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But the way you talk about it really tells me that, actually these things are heavily
overlapped.

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How can you think about what...

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an application or platform should look like without actually understanding the direction
it's going and that means interacting with the users and understanding what their

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expectations are.

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Whereas I feel like a lot of companies actually keep these organizations as separate
entities who may not even talk that much.

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So until now in this startup that we are building right now moving from these like we
started out with five people five years ago

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we haven't had any product managers.

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So the way we have been organizing this is to first of all make sure that we have really
skilled employees.

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then people will probably argue that you need to have a product manager first.

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So what we have seen until now is that we haven't had a need for a product manager

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I think that's a really critical mentality you've got here because I really push the same
thing on the engineering side as well.

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When you're hiring anyone, I think fundamentally you have to understand that area that
you're in or the skills you bring to the table, there's still always to solve some

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cornerstone area that's really business driven.

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And I know saying like, what's the business problem or business strategy is such a dirty
word in engineering that everyone's like, oh, business, that's something else.

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We don't need to think about that.

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there are a lot of failure modes though that happen.

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When you have a dedicated UX team, I've seen the opposite side where you have something
called the UX team in your organization or your company and they just create components

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for every UI element that you could possibly have.

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And they're off designing fancy UIs and don't actually understand what the users are
actually doing or what they need.

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There was one example from my past where the UX team wanted to help everyone and they
eventually got to our organization and they were working with one of my teams.

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And they're like, we should change the UI to do all these different things.

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And there's a better user experience for them.

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Having done no research whatsoever on how many people actually use the screen, what
they're using it for, what the user journeys are that really need to be solved there.

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And they're removing elements and putting things other places.

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I'm like, what are you doing?

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Honestly, what did you think was going to happen here?

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When I start discussing UX for me and that's also why I mentioned the UX strategy in the
beginning because

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As you said, you can outsource the UI if you want to, but UI is for me more like, how does
this look and feel?

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Then you have the interaction design

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But then you have the more important thing and that's the core fundamental thing for me.

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that is actually going behind the scene.

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This is really starting to understand what problem is it actually that we want to solve
here.

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And then we can always decide how should that look like later.

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We can always decide how should it work.

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But if we don't manage to ask the fundamental question, what problem are we actually
trying to solve?

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then we have an issue.

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there's two problems I see pretty frequently.

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The first one often your customer or your collaborator or your client is asking for
something.

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In this Asking them, you really need that?

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Or what's the real problem?

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They think they want that.

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It's almost forcing them into an existential crisis what are they really doing with their
lives as far as their business goes, because they may have actually never thought about

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what it is that they really need.

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And I found that to be an ongoing challenge with companies at all sizes coming in to help.

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And you said this at the beginning where...

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you're getting paid and you just ask a lot of questions clients are unhappy because
obviously most people want to be told that their ideas are fantastic and they're doing the

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absolute right thing and not you tried doing the exact opposite thing that you have been
doing for an extended period of time?

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I feel like that's a hard sell for a lot of people.

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It is, it is.

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And this is also why it's so important for me to split into what is UI, what is UX, and
what is the strategy.

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Because once you start explaining this, especially if you are internal in a company, when
you are inside a larger company

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they ask you, just deliver this button to me or can you change this color of the button?

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I'm just like, why?

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And once I start asking that why, they need to argument and then I will ask one more time,
why?

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and in the end I will ask them so it's not because I don't want to do this for you I just
want to make sure that we are really solving the real problem.

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it's about communication.

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I remember I was hired in as like UX like to do this big turnaround uh in a larger company
nine years ago

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expected me to be the UX expert, coming in, setting the stage, setting the team, show them
like, we need to organize like this, I need to have these UX resources, we have these six

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team development teams.

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They would be part of my team, but they will be like this virtual team working very close
together with engineering.

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It sounds like a mess.

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and they said, okay, so what should we do?

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you build?

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And I said, do know what?

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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And they got so mad at You are the UX.

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So just like, yeah, I am.

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But I don't know all the answers.

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we need to go out and actually speak to the users We need to speak to the customers.

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consumers.

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the product management innovation triad.

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I group the engineers and the business into one group, realistically.

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There's external, your users, then internal, wherever that ideas come from.

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And then I usually throw in competition because they're not your users, but maybe they
did, one would hope that they did some research, which I don't know is actually the case

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today.

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And you can benefit from the outcomes of that research without actually having to go
through the

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process yourself well that can lead you in bad directions especially we see these products
that just copy their competitors and they don't actually understand what the core problem

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is and then five years down the road their competitors fail and they fail too because they
didn't understand really what the core problem was and they were just copying someone else

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who seemed like they were making money and seemed like it was a good idea at the time.

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And I fully agree with you.

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I really don't like and I don't believe in copy-pasting features.

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I absolutely agree 100%.

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I'm laughing because I think there's a couple of aspects to this.

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one of them is that you're in a lot of organizations where you're leading and you have
this mindset.

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But I also see the other side where there is an engineering organization and they've been
beat down into just doing whatever anyone else says because when they try to ask

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questions, the customer says,

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Well, I need it to be a link because someone else is paying me money to make it be a link.

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And so I just need you to do this.

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I see a lot of people that just don't have the, it's not necessarily the capacity or the
desire to ask the questions, but they are just not empowered to do it.

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what I have seen in other companies is that you have this friction between sales and
success team versus engineering.

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Even engineers would sometimes like to speak to the users to actually see, hey, it
actually work?

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The things I was working so hard on, it actually like, did you actually like it?

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I mean, that's, it's a fair question.

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some different flavors of engineers there excited by knowing their thing is being used,
but then I get I know the other ones that are absolutely terrified of being what I have to

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talk to a user.

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I don't want to do that.

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is back to the culture.

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Yes, we have engineers that really, really don't like this and we should never ever force
them into speaking with users.

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To me, there's so many other people that would like to do it.

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No, but it's interesting you bring that up though, is because actually and on...

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not this episode, one of the, I think the next one actually will be doing on the Dora
report for 2025.

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And the interesting thing about the report is that it does actually identify that no
matter what role you're in in an organization, you are creating something and there's

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someone else who is using that thing, which means they're users.

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No matter what position you're in in a company, you have a user and by not talking to
them, you can only be doing the wrong thing.

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What if you have a whole team that I mean, it's not a one man show building software.

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It's a team effort.

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think there's a couple of different aspects here.

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The first one is for sure is a middleman problem, a telephone game, where there is maybe a
disconnect on delivering information.

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And so if there is an engineer leading a project they're trying to figure out what to do
there, I would absolutely expect them to be on the call.

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I may not be expecting them to answer every question but they should be there to absorb it
in a way.

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then we are totally agree because to me what's important is that they should join the
call, they should be close to the users and also listening in to the feedback that we are

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collecting.

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But I don't want to take a good, like a world-class developer and force him.

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to be the one facilitating the call or force him to ask all the questions

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in the previous jobs putting a developer in front of a lady who has been like learned how
to use IT and technology being responsible for doing like the monthly salary in a company

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the gap can simply be like

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too much for him.

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So he can join the call, but he doesn't necessarily really want to ask a lot of questions.

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I want them to join, but I don't want to force people if they don't like that.

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Wow, I have like the complete opposite perspective here, which is just fascinating to me.

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seen more engineers at every level.

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be interested in, joining calls or talking with whoever the end user are, irrelevant of
the technical complexity of the product they're creating, my perspective is it has to do

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with the scope and the impact that they want to deliver.

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So for sure, for engineers who are inexperienced, who have just gotten into the industry,
I don't expect them to be able to connect all the dots a ladder of leadership.

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by the author of Turn the Ship Around, which is absolutely fantastic, that talks about
what sort of work are you doing, what sort of level is it at?

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And I find that the jump into, we'll call it like staff engineer, actually starts being
the point for me where you can't get ahead unless you're able to answer business and

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product related questions.

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I just don't see there being middle ground there where you can just.

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continue down in an engineering focused approach there.

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And I think the ones that do make the jump, they know this and that's why they're able to
get to principle or higher because seen that, okay, in order for me to actually deliver

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the right technology, I need to fully understand what the product or business problem is.

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Exactly.

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always bring them in, has them in as many calls as possible.

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No matter if this is UXs, if this is success people, if this is engineering people, I want
them to be on the call.

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mean, people being responsible for documentation should for sure be on the call.

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We are hearing about the feedback around the documentation.

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That's the only way we can really improve listening in to all the great feedback,

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end of the day I want my employees my engineering team my whole organization to be the one
shining And I would love to have them on the call every time What we did

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in the startup a couple of years ago when we agreed on that, okay, we are actually growing
pretty fast.

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when you are in these lots companies, you often see this friction or this gap between
sales success versus engineering team.

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one of the things that was very, very important to me was because I've seen this gap
between these silos in an organization.

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I promised myself I will never build that silo in this company

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I like the perspective of when you're making your own company, which I guess I have some
experience doing.

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You get to take all the great learnings that you've had over the course of your career and
bring them to it.

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From experience though, I see a lot of people sort of making the mistake of...

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There's a great quote in Jurassic Park too when they're talking about making a new
dinosaur island and says Richard Hammond did, I won't make the same mistakes.

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when making the new park was Dr.

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Malcolm says, no, you'll make all new ones.

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Because I think there really is this aspect where there are so many things that you can
get wrong and just your list of experiences are only like a small part of.

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ah everything that the organization can do to be successful or not.

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I love your optimism that you can just go at it.

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I think maybe there is this magic number here that maybe like 20 or 30 years in the
industry and now you've accumulated anxiety or debt of doing it all the wrong ways.

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You're like, I'm not going to make all the same mistakes if I could go and do it myself.

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have learned, this is also of the reasons why

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I'm working so close together with the rest of the departments is to prevent us from
making silos.

198
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of course, you will always have small frictions, small gaps, stuff like that.

199
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And especially when we are in this remote first setup.

200
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But.

201
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We are not having the silos when it comes to the customers and to me that is super
important.

202
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And this is something that I will continue protecting as much as I can.

203
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when I say not in a feature game.

204
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one of the most important numbers that we can measure.

205
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Of course we are measuring

206
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What about the loyalty score?

207
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What about the satisfaction score?

208
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And that's something that we have been measuring from day one in this company.

209
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was so afraid you were going to say that you measure or optimize for the dwell time of
users on a particular page.

210
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The engagement score, because that's the worst possible thing.

211
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I actually, don't know if that's worse than generic NPS, which a lot of companies use and
just isn't a great metric of whether the success of a product or your company is going

212
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further.

213
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I like the aspect of actually collecting

214
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Meaningful feedback is quite quite better than just asking someone.

215
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Hey, would you recommend this operating system to your friend?

216
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It's like well, no, I don't often talk about which opera unless unless you're an engineer
and then of course, you're probably recommending arch to someone

217
00:16:57,644 --> 00:17:00,394
yeah, I'm more into nice food when I speak to my friends

218
00:17:00,394 --> 00:17:10,138
So one of the problems I've seen in my experience is that the customers where you have the
most to learn from are exactly the same set that are most hesitant to share anything with

219
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you.

220
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think it's priorities, right?

221
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That often their focus is somewhere completely irrelevant from their standpoint in
communicating with you.

222
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And what I often see is that's the exact sort of feedback that would be helpful in

223
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helping them solve whatever their business problem is.

224
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Because realistically, I hate to have a solution which is fully 100 % self-service,
because it means it's never changing itself without your metric collection of data.

225
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Which, of course, you can do.

226
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And you can either do some sort of anonymous user feedback research or whatever, and
collect additional data, whether it's happening in your UIs or application or APIs.

227
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But realistically, actually getting a better understanding of how the business is working
and where their focus is.

228
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tends to be a really hard, challenging problem.

229
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what we are doing is that we are granularly rolling out new functionality to users.

230
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And even before sometimes we are deciding, should we do some rapid prototyping?

231
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Should we try to show some of these mock-ups in front of the users?

232
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I would say in this company that we are building right now, we don't have that issue
because what we have been working very hard on is making sure that we cannot sell stuff

233
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that we don't have, that we haven't built.

234
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And that is a super, super strong culture value that we are really protecting a lot.

235
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So the whole sales organization they are not overselling but we are realistic when we are
speaking with customers.

236
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what problem can we actually help you

237
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We get the feedback because we are measuring the feedback directly inside the product.

238
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they can always leave that feedback to us and then of course good old reaching out to do
surveys we are focusing a lot on on both the quantitative part of measuring but also the

239
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qualitative part

240
00:18:50,658 --> 00:18:56,951
It sounds like you have a very mature strategy for handling sales within the company at
every level, I applaud you on that.

241
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One thing that comes to mind though is that it's good to test the boundary of what you're
selling.

242
00:19:02,776 --> 00:19:13,686
If you never sell a feature you don't have, then you could be selling more and potentially
figure out, that's actually something good that we could innovate on by actually adding it

243
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to our product.

244
00:19:14,437 --> 00:19:19,960
And this is the interesting one because of course we get a lot of insight from prospects.

245
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Of course they have needs, they also have problems and we want to understand that better.

246
00:19:24,422 --> 00:19:35,728
And sometimes what we have to do as part of the sales process is looping me in or looping
in the CTO, jumping on the customer call, really carefully listening into what are they

247
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asking for because maybe there's something we haven't seen yet.

248
00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:42,246
Maybe this is also a problem the rest of the customers has,

249
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We haven't identified that yet.

250
00:19:43,912 --> 00:19:53,899
I haven't mentioned to you yet is that everyone that has customer feedback, customer
input, prospects input, it could be yourself reading something smart, coming up with

251
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something, saw something somewhere else.

252
00:19:56,201 --> 00:20:02,183
It could be feedback from our surveys, the NPS, all these kind of things

253
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I think that having the dedicated spot where you can put in these requests that may align
with across multiple customers or even over multiple years, it's interesting because

254
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sometimes I do go to ours and I see like, actually we solved this one accidentally via
another process.

255
00:20:15,861 --> 00:20:17,792
Like we ended up taking care of it.

256
00:20:17,792 --> 00:20:26,940
It's early on, we tried to be strict about what direction we wanted to take with a bunch
of our products and found that actually the times that we would potentially say no in a

257
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meeting, we're just like, we're going to change our process.

258
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Instead of saying no, say, yeah, sure, why not?

259
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And then write it down and then see if we change our minds because I think there is a
large number of times where we have gone back to it and thought about it we're like, no,

260
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actually we had the wrong mentality here.

261
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And I think it's a great approach.

262
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I think it helps innovate and change your product and have it keep growing in the right
direction, which is why, and I really want you to level with me here.

263
00:20:51,410 --> 00:20:53,903
Why are there so many bad applications out there?

264
00:20:53,903 --> 00:20:57,215
And what I mean is with ones with bad user experience.

265
00:20:57,215 --> 00:21:03,225
And I have to know, like do you think that having good UX, is it hard or are people just
lazy?

266
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I don't know if I really can answer that question, not because I don't want to.

267
00:21:09,667 --> 00:21:14,291
I don't know if I can, but I can answer like from myself.

268
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To me,

269
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I would never ever like to deliver a product.

270
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I would never ever be proud if I'm not deliver a product that has a world-class

271
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18 years ago now, ish.

272
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I was a consultant.

273
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I went into this.

274
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,311
It was one of the largest enterprises in Denmark.

275
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I was asked to come in and do a facelift on a mainframe.

276
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Not easy, but I had to do it and I managed to do it.

277
00:21:39,381 --> 00:21:45,350
the hardest part was actually that they had this design agency who had used so many money.

278
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I don't even remember the number anymore, but it was huge amount of the design.

279
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Like this is the now the new design template when you communicate on the website, when you
are communicating on like in papers and letters and all this kind of things.

280
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And they gave it to me and they says, and by the way, you just need to fix that on these
two applications.

281
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And I looked at them and I says, do you know what?

282
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I can't.

283
00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:10,617
And they say, why?

284
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We have spent so many money.

285
00:22:12,037 --> 00:22:13,449
And I say, I can't do that.

286
00:22:13,449 --> 00:22:18,890
Remember this is a tool for people that will be working in front of this screen eight
hours a day.

287
00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:26,983
If I put this primary colors into these screens, you will have a problem with your
employees because they will end up not feeling well.

288
00:22:26,983 --> 00:22:34,707
You will give them like problems with their eyes because these colors can never work in an
application that you have to look at in eight hours a day.

289
00:22:34,707 --> 00:22:37,035
And they got so mad at me.

290
00:22:37,035 --> 00:22:40,868
I took a piece of paper, seriously a piece of paper.

291
00:22:40,868 --> 00:22:44,261
I colored it in the colors that they were asking me for.

292
00:22:44,261 --> 00:22:47,217
I gave it to the management team of this company.

293
00:22:47,217 --> 00:22:52,976
And I said to them, all of you just look at this now in 30 seconds and then look at the
white wall.

294
00:22:52,976 --> 00:22:55,918
was not a nice experience and then they were convinced

295
00:22:55,918 --> 00:22:59,501
there is this aspect where we see much worse things get released.

296
00:22:59,501 --> 00:23:08,357
if anyone works in the accessibility space is probably unfortunately familiar with this
one episode of the original run of Pokemon, which I think it literally would induce a

297
00:23:08,357 --> 00:23:10,038
seizure if you watched it.

298
00:23:10,038 --> 00:23:13,421
And it was pulled before making it to outside of Japan.

299
00:23:13,421 --> 00:23:18,708
But if you see this and you don't have any sort of epilepsy, I still think that there is
some...

300
00:23:18,708 --> 00:23:22,675
denigration that you will suffer uh by looking at it because it's just so bad.

301
00:23:22,675 --> 00:23:23,935
yeah, yeah.

302
00:23:28,536 --> 00:23:25,318
there are a lot of experiences out there.

303
00:23:25,318 --> 00:23:29,740
I just don't want to put my name on an experience that is not super nice.

304
00:23:29,740 --> 00:23:34,634
to be honest, I can't talk from the rest of the UX world, but we have like...

305
00:23:34,634 --> 00:23:39,907
At least from Scandinavia and Denmark, have pretty strong design traditions.

306
00:23:39,907 --> 00:23:44,038
And you also see that in in furnitures and stuff like that.

307
00:23:44,038 --> 00:23:54,303
And I think that's probably why at least I and also I know like people in my community are
caring a lot about like high quality interfaces as well.

308
00:23:54,303 --> 00:23:57,164
And then, course, accessibility and other things.

309
00:23:57,164 --> 00:24:00,389
And I think this could sometimes also be culture related.

310
00:24:00,389 --> 00:24:07,769
I think you're definitely onto something there because realistically, there can just be a
lot of people that are in the peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve, right?

311
00:24:07,769 --> 00:24:15,017
Where they think that they are actually trying to do the best they can, and they may even
be doing that, but they don't realize.

312
00:24:15,017 --> 00:24:24,513
all those issues that come and they need someone like you, Elise, on their staff, leading
them and showing them how to actually look at colors on a piece of paper to actually

313
00:24:24,513 --> 00:24:31,793
validate that there's accessibility problems with their design or usability issues with
their application that they're putting out.

314
00:24:31,793 --> 00:24:43,972
I am more curious actually to figuring out Like how much do all this new AI, I probably
take over like a lot of the tasks that we are doing in UX and in UI space.

315
00:24:43,972 --> 00:24:48,992
I'm pretty curious to actually see like what about the accessibility?

316
00:24:48,992 --> 00:24:59,893
Well, I think the interesting thing about utilizing models to design or even build the
components for UIs is one of the things that we keep talking about is expectations when it

317
00:24:59,893 --> 00:25:03,332
comes to interacting with any sort of visual application.

318
00:25:03,332 --> 00:25:10,664
And not necessarily visual, I I assume the same is true for those that are visually
impaired if you think about just physical placement or audio signals.

319
00:25:10,664 --> 00:25:15,176
we actually want statistically the most common thing for a particular culture, right?

320
00:25:15,176 --> 00:25:20,108
Like it may not be synonymous everywhere you go in every single country, but within an
area.

321
00:25:20,108 --> 00:25:25,250
And so I think this is one of the things where models excel at because they are
probabilistic.

322
00:25:25,250 --> 00:25:31,933
And so picking the most relevant thing is often the right choice in these areas and trying
to go off the curve is problematic.

323
00:25:31,933 --> 00:25:38,035
And the other thing is that I think in the last five years or so, accessibility has become
a really huge thing, especially throughout Europe

324
00:25:38,035 --> 00:25:46,171
that we are getting specifications involved where the expectations are codified and models
do a really great job in translating.

325
00:25:46,171 --> 00:25:48,752
so from translating from a spec to the expectation.

326
00:25:48,752 --> 00:25:57,839
So I think those things included without any change in technology whatsoever, I think
we're at a pretty good height of the creation of UI-based technology.

327
00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:04,652
design of components automatically via the tools and I don't know how much better it needs
to get but also that it can get.

328
00:26:04,652 --> 00:26:09,872
think one of the best tools that I have actually been testing out so far was

329
00:26:09,945 --> 00:26:19,980
make which kind of surprise for me and I don't know if it's a surprise course I would
expect a great experience but I've also been trying other tools where I was just oh my

330
00:26:19,980 --> 00:26:28,578
goodness just asking about like a simple can you help changing this color from like from
the purple to blue and then it turns out to change the

331
00:26:28,578 --> 00:26:39,413
screen and adding like some AI text I'm just like no I didn't ask for that I just asked
you very specific to change this color I think we can get there but sometimes it's also

332
00:26:39,413 --> 00:26:49,491
just still faster for us to actually do minor updates at least that's where we are now and
maybe if I come back like six months from now we can have a very different conversation

333
00:26:49,491 --> 00:26:50,192
here yeah

334
00:26:50,192 --> 00:26:51,403
Well, that's certainly on the table.

335
00:26:51,403 --> 00:26:59,291
I do want to just ask about the core functionality of the product that your company is
building just to give a little bit of flavor

336
00:26:59,291 --> 00:27:02,774
we are working in this feature flag domain,

337
00:27:02,774 --> 00:27:07,015
and what we are focusing on when it comes to the feature flag part

338
00:27:07,015 --> 00:27:21,296
either as an team or you as a business can decide whenever you want to make your features
available for your customers and your But what it also opens up is the opportunity to

339
00:27:21,296 --> 00:27:27,700
to roll out granually and actually faster to start collecting feedback.

340
00:27:52,957 --> 00:27:31,495
it also means that I can actually be in customer conversation strategic customer.

341
00:27:31,495 --> 00:27:42,157
We can talk about like we are now about to go GA with this or we are now entering a beta
with, I don't know, for instance, our release management functionality.

342
00:27:42,157 --> 00:27:45,496
doing the call, I can actually turn it on for this customer.

343
00:27:45,496 --> 00:27:54,582
What we also can do is make sure that we can minimize the risk because we can actually
start rolling this out and once we're rolling it out we can actually see the impact.

344
00:27:54,582 --> 00:27:57,921
Like does it seems to have an impact on our performance?

345
00:27:57,921 --> 00:28:01,189
does it break anything in the application and all these kind can just

346
00:28:01,189 --> 00:28:03,006
she said the trigger words there.

347
00:28:03,006 --> 00:28:09,010
like the aspect to control access to individual features within the application.

348
00:28:09,010 --> 00:28:19,630
Interestingly enough though, think using any sort of flags for rolling out software that
is untested or to verify that it doesn't break stuff in production creates this sort of

349
00:28:19,630 --> 00:28:20,840
pit of failure.

350
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:28,389
engineers or engineering organizations end up pushing out work that is now untested
because they a crutch that allows them to test.

351
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:36,499
And from our own validation and what I've seen at some other companies, they end up in
this scenario they're more likely to break production because of the introduction of a

352
00:28:36,499 --> 00:28:40,223
system than to actually do the testing upfront.

353
00:28:40,223 --> 00:28:46,099
so one of the questions I actually want to ask you is, how do you encourage teams to

354
00:28:46,099 --> 00:28:57,159
have a healthy mindset about not relying on the technology to replace, say, critical
testing before actually pushing it out and leveraging this mechanism as a safety net.

355
00:28:57,159 --> 00:28:59,309
as always, I don't have a single answer to this.

356
00:28:59,309 --> 00:29:11,286
But uh one of the answers is that we are working from an MVP the developers are taking the
ownership of actually doing proper testing before we are releasing anything.

357
00:29:11,286 --> 00:29:15,175
We can't have developers who just go to work and doesn't care.

358
00:29:15,175 --> 00:29:19,589
this again is back to like how do we build our organization?

359
00:29:19,589 --> 00:29:29,231
How do we manage to build a culture where it's okay to fail, but it's also okay to learn a
lot and also feel safe when you're actually doing this because we could also have a

360
00:29:29,231 --> 00:29:32,339
culture where we are pointing fingers of each other and we don't want that.

361
00:29:32,339 --> 00:29:35,312
As an engineer, you're never left on your own.

362
00:29:35,312 --> 00:29:43,179
As an engineer, you will always have your engineering manager, you will always have your
squad lead who will guide you, help you, teach you if there's something that you are a

363
00:29:43,179 --> 00:29:44,076
insecure around.

364
00:29:44,076 --> 00:29:48,345
We still need to have people to review this, but we don't have any dedicated testers.

365
00:29:48,345 --> 00:29:50,768
We have people that really cares.

366
00:29:52,415 --> 00:29:50,701
I love it.

367
00:29:50,701 --> 00:29:58,997
And you brought up like three other topics, which obviously we'd have no time to cover and
we'll have to dedicate individual episodes to building a blameless culture and remote

368
00:29:58,997 --> 00:29:59,388
work.

369
00:29:59,388 --> 00:30:04,954
But I think maybe that's a good point for us to leave off the episode and shift over to
picks.

370
00:30:04,954 --> 00:30:07,618
So, Elisa, what did you bring for us today?

371
00:30:07,618 --> 00:30:10,681
Maybe you already heard about this, maybe you haven't.

372
00:30:10,681 --> 00:30:12,943
To me this is pretty interesting.

373
00:30:12,943 --> 00:30:15,691
Gimini is now Generative UI.

374
00:30:15,691 --> 00:30:18,595
Which to me seems very promising.

375
00:30:18,595 --> 00:30:20,759
but also a bit scary to be honest.

376
00:30:20,759 --> 00:30:27,991
It looks like Google is really trying to disrupt how we have been building websites and
how we have been building products.

377
00:30:27,991 --> 00:30:33,775
And now they are diving into this like we should have individual uh user interfaces.

378
00:30:33,775 --> 00:30:41,525
So each individual user will have this like generated UI whenever they have a need I
haven't read the article yet.

379
00:30:41,525 --> 00:30:46,732
I haven't looked too much into this, but I just want to share with all of you.

380
00:30:46,732 --> 00:30:52,496
And for sure, this is something that I will need to dive much more into this upcoming
weekend.

381
00:30:52,496 --> 00:30:55,434
this is really and can be disrupting

382
00:30:55,434 --> 00:31:02,170
the idea to go to a chat interface or even a voice interface was always sort of going
backwards in a lot of applications.

383
00:31:02,170 --> 00:31:05,557
And I think this is the necessary piece that reconnects it back.

384
00:31:05,557 --> 00:31:14,806
It's like we've collectively as society picked dedicated interfaces for whatever we're
using a cash register or manufacturing bench, et cetera, the tools you have or even the

385
00:31:14,806 --> 00:31:16,980
digital widgets you have on your browser.

386
00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:19,731
I think we've realized that those are the best.

387
00:31:19,731 --> 00:31:29,262
And in certain areas, we're already doing this without LLMs at my own company, where if
there's an incident, we're dynamically generating exactly the dashboard with the metrics

388
00:31:29,262 --> 00:31:36,253
you want to see, as well as what code changes were relevant there so that you can go and
make a change or do the investigation.

389
00:31:36,253 --> 00:31:38,824
I think we already see that there is a huge value in this.

390
00:31:38,824 --> 00:31:42,746
I think there is an aspect of getting the right thing out for the user, not just

391
00:31:42,746 --> 00:31:49,510
for the user, in that particular uh incident or issue or whatever their user story is that
they're trying to complete.

392
00:31:49,510 --> 00:32:01,409
So I see this as a necessary forward path there, where it can only be done because we've
spent arguably a huge amount of work in the last 30 years on what is the best UI for a

393
00:32:01,409 --> 00:32:02,884
particular user experience that we can have.

394
00:32:02,884 --> 00:32:07,343
And without that, don't think we would have been able to, or Google would not have been
able to steal that work.

395
00:32:07,343 --> 00:32:09,347
mean, we'd not be able to have a

396
00:32:09,347 --> 00:32:11,451
You

397
00:32:11,778 --> 00:32:14,816
on that work and provide us a new experience there.

398
00:32:14,816 --> 00:32:16,247
Yeah, absolutely.

399
00:32:16,247 --> 00:32:21,668
No, but I agree with you and pretty cool that you're already doing this in your company
actually.

400
00:32:21,668 --> 00:32:23,459
For some things, yeah, absolutely.

401
00:32:23,459 --> 00:32:30,261
So one of our products is of Slackbot, so we don't control the UI at all there whatsoever,
so no ability to change anything.

402
00:32:30,261 --> 00:32:39,521
And the other one is an administrative interface, so we don't have to spend a lot of time
on user research or building out the UI because it's used in, it's a very technical

403
00:32:39,521 --> 00:32:40,072
product.

404
00:32:40,072 --> 00:32:44,236
the UI is used rarely most of the time we're selling an API.

405
00:32:44,236 --> 00:32:47,929
So if we need to do things, we care about a very high uptime.

406
00:32:47,929 --> 00:32:56,256
So being able to glean into insights, we can spend all of our collective UI and UX juices
on designing the best internal monitors that we have.

407
00:32:56,256 --> 00:32:58,796
So innovating there is really something we have to do.

408
00:32:58,796 --> 00:32:59,836
Yeah, okay.

409
00:32:59,836 --> 00:33:01,716
So what did I bring today?

410
00:33:01,716 --> 00:33:04,636
I had one pick, but I think I'm going to change it based on our conversation.

411
00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:11,636
There's a great website run by a couple of UX researchers called growth.design.

412
00:33:11,636 --> 00:33:13,216
I'm sure you've heard of it.

413
00:33:13,216 --> 00:33:21,876
They have like 30 or 40 different case studies where they went through different
applications or UIs and basically tore them apart.

414
00:33:21,876 --> 00:33:23,316
Like what's wrong with this?

415
00:33:23,316 --> 00:33:27,767
And not just like what's wrong with it from a user standpoint, but like looking at it
through the eyes of a business.

416
00:33:27,767 --> 00:33:28,620
It's not just like,

417
00:33:28,620 --> 00:33:36,415
user would think this would want to be different but realistically as a business if you
want to make money or capture engagement etc like what could they have changed and should

418
00:33:36,415 --> 00:33:45,103
they change to make that happen and they are really well done every single one of them
they do like tick-tock and Airbnb and stuff like that and I think every single time one

419
00:33:45,103 --> 00:33:55,072
comes out it's is a good introduction to what UX design goes through but also even if you
are experienced like just learning about another new interesting

420
00:33:55,072 --> 00:34:02,118
bias or value that is actually being utilized or abused by certain companies to get you to
do what they want in their app.

421
00:34:31,225 --> 00:34:02,714
I truly agree with you.

422
00:34:02,714 --> 00:34:08,031
We cannot have like UX cannot stand alone UX is part of like the bigger picture.

423
00:34:08,031 --> 00:34:10,056
It's just a piece in the puzzle.

424
00:34:10,056 --> 00:34:13,278
and we really need to to better understand.

425
00:34:56,309 --> 00:34:17,306
we were actually able to take insight from Growth.Design and something that we were doing.

426
00:34:17,306 --> 00:34:21,369
They had a whole case study on optimizing the login flow.

427
00:34:21,369 --> 00:34:28,344
If someone signs up and you get an email to your inbox, it used to say forever, yeah, go
open your email and click the link.

428
00:34:28,344 --> 00:34:29,584
And they're like, that's dumb.

429
00:34:29,584 --> 00:34:38,130
You should at least figure out which provider they're utilizing and then automatically
provide display buttons so they can click on the appropriate one.

430
00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:39,381
and go to that page.

431
00:34:39,381 --> 00:34:41,352
we're like, why is this just research?

432
00:34:41,352 --> 00:34:42,563
We're an off provider.

433
00:34:42,563 --> 00:34:45,654
We could just make these buttons, make it automatically work.

434
00:34:45,654 --> 00:34:54,516
And so now we have a whole part of our application which automatically uses the MX records
to figure out which email provider someone is utilizing and then automatically redirect

435
00:34:54,516 --> 00:35:01,839
them to their mailbox to click the link because getting stuck on this screen is just one
of the worst user experiences ever.

436
00:35:01,839 --> 00:35:03,530
And I really thought this was quite insightful.

437
00:35:03,530 --> 00:35:08,970
Absolutely and it will absolutely not help your conversion rates so just go fix it.

438
00:35:09,125 --> 00:35:16,847
they're talking about even having the right buttons there, like boost the conversion rate
by a 30 % extra on top, which is amazing to start with, and then taking it the extra steps

439
00:35:16,847 --> 00:35:19,758
that we did has just been such a game changer in a lot of ways.

440
00:35:19,758 --> 00:35:24,615
ah hesitate to bring up that new topic here, so maybe we'll stop here for the episode.

441
00:35:24,615 --> 00:35:29,348
Thank you so much, Elise, for coming and joining with us today and talking about
everything there is to do with UX.

442
00:35:29,348 --> 00:35:31,914
at least part of it, but yeah, thank you for having me.

443
00:35:31,914 --> 00:35:37,176
And then we can always continue diving even more into this space and other spaces as well.

444
00:35:37,176 --> 00:35:37,999
Thank you.

445
00:35:37,999 --> 00:35:39,301
We may need to get you back on the show.

446
00:35:39,301 --> 00:35:43,058
And thank you so much to Incident.io for sponsoring today's episode.

447
00:35:43,058 --> 00:35:44,340
thank you for the listeners.

448
00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:47,284
And hopefully, we'll be back again next week.