For real this time, Warren, sound check. I think I'm still here. All right, you are welcome, glad to have you. Jillian, Hello, Hello, welcome back after your time jet setting around the world or whatever you were doing. I was helping somebody move last week. So now that I like live back home my family, I keep on being expected to be like a real adult who shows. Up for them. It's been quite the transition for me. So there we go. And then joining us today, Adriana. I forgot to ask how to pronounce your last name Valleyla Valela Valela. Oh you were close everybody that's an e in there. Yeah, yeah, I should probably have my glasses checked. But hey, welcome. I'm glad to have you here, happy to here right on. So the big thing I want to shout out right away is you are the host of the Geeking Out podcast. I am right on, so tell us how that's going. So I started the podcast, say twenty twenty three. I was in the fall of twenty twenty three. It came on the heels of a previous podcast that I was doing through work with former coworker of mine on the Margarita Medina and Our podcast. And this was a work related podcast, and you had the best name. It was called on Call Me Maybe. Damn it. It was like so much fun. We had about two seasons of it. I want to say it was like about twenty six episodes, and then we were no longer able to continue it. So then I thought, well, I want to still keep podcasting, so I started my own podcast, Geeking Out. And then I was because we used to have like an editor for on Call Me Maybe, and I'm like, damn it, I don't know how to do any of this podcast editing stuff. And my daughter, who I guess was fourteen at the time, she's like, I'll help you out, mom. So I'm like, okay. So she helps me out with the editing. I've up to my editing game as well. But she's also designed the logo for it, which has copy batas, which I love. I don't know. They're just fun animals, and I got introduced to them on Instagram. I started like getting all these videos. I'm like, oh my god, where have you been all my life? So anyway, they're like our mascot, so cute. They're doable because I just scored a couple at Miniso. I don't know if you guys have that in the States. But yeah, it was Yeah. I was like, oh my god, this is the best. And yeah, and the podcast itself I have. It's a tech podcast. I interview a lot of folks in tech. I especially like to give voices to women and other under ruppers groups, and of had a I don't know a combination of people who are both super well known in the industry and not so well known. So I guess my highest profile guest was Kelsey high Tower. I've had Charity Majors, Liz Fung, Jones, Hazel Weekly, so lots of lots of fun guests and then other people that I've met along the way where I'm like, you have such a cool story, you should be on my podcast. Right, Like, once you start a podcast, like you're always it feels like a sales role, like always be closing. You know, you're always like trying to pull people into the show. So true. True, So you're also a CNCF ambassador and principal developer advocate at Dina Trace. That's correct, right on, Dina Trace is cool. Like some of the stuff that they expose and dig into, it's like, wow, you you went way deeper into this than I wanted to go. It's so true and it's funny. So I just I just started my job at Dina Trace in November of last year, so I'm pretty fresh, and you know, I I I came in because of my connection to the open telemetry community and my previous job. I was a developer advocate at light Step, which had gotten acquired by a service now, so I'd gotten into the open telemetry and observability community and and so when I joined Dina Trace, I'm like, well, you know, it's like also an observability vendor, but it's like so much more. And so one of my one of my co workers, h Andy Grabner, he's been with Dina Trace forever. I call him mister Dina Trace because he's like he's so he's so passionate about the platform and what we do and and everything. And he's really helped me. Uh He's given me a tour of the platform, and we have this video series that started. It started because he was like, hey, you know, it would be good for you to like get to know the platform. And every time he showed me new stuff, I'm like, dude, this stuff is so cool. You know it would be really fun if we did like a YouTube reaction video series kind of thing where you just show me stuff for the first time and I react to it. So then we started this video series called Dina Trace. Can do that with open telemetry, and my reactions are are like O natural because I can't act. So it's been it's been a fun way to learn about what the product does and also like share share that same wonder with the rest of the world. So yeah, yeah, Dina Trace is like a gateway drug, Like you come for the observability and then you're like, oh wow, and then just go deep down the rabbit hole. That name sounds familiar. It was was Grabner on our show already. He was, yeah, I think it's been Actually, I don't know how long ago. I had this conversation with my I have this conversation with my wife the other day. Like I have three time periods in my life. I can group things like prior to nineteen ninety, between nineteen ninety and yesterday and today, and I can't get any more granular than that. I think that's one up on most of the population, though, like what happened five minutes ago and that's it, right, So. True Also, I thought nineteen ninety was like yesterday, Like where did this time go? Don't do the math, don't do the math. It's just gonna do no. No. It really depresses me when people are like so I was like born in nineteen ninety three. I'm like, oh, I was in my first year of high school. Cool. Cool. So we were going to talk today about observability in the CICD platform, So tell me a little bit about what that means to you. So, I guess the main thing is, I think when we talk about observability, there's thillse this uh stigma. I guess I don't know if stigma is the right word, but we have this association that observability is like an essry concern, right, because that's that's where when when things go kaka in prad, you know, you you turn to your observability solution and look through you know, the traces, the logs and metrics to figure out what's going on and all that, which is awesome, but you know, it's it's so much more than that, because, first of all, like it, observability is a team sport, right in order for that telemetry to even get emitted in the first place and it Yes, there's some telemetry that you automatically pick up from from your infrastructure and whatnot, but there's also the telemetry that has to be written by somebody, right, so you're you're developers and and so the developers have to care about observability, right, So now we're we're not seeing observability is just like, oh, it's not just a necessary thing. Someone had to put in that telemetry in order for us to be able to even have this conversation of understanding what our system's doing. And we can take it a step further and say, well, you know what if during the software development life cycle, like you know, developers instrument their code. This gets handed off to QA, and QA can use the observability data and say, hey, I can use this to troubleshoot my code or to troubleshoot the code that I'm testing, and I can provide that feedback then to developers and say hey, I found a bug and this is what's happening. Or they can say hey, I found a bug. I don't know why this is happening. You need to instrument better. So now we're like we're shifting, We're shifting left right on observability. So we've got so we've got the development side, we've got the qaside, we've got the production side with with our sries and whatnot. But then there's that also piece in the middle, which is, you know, our CICD pipelines that we've come to rely heavily on our CICD pipelines to ensure that our code gets built and our automatic automated tests get run and gets deployed to production. Awesome, but like what happens when that pipeline goes KACA Because that pipeline, even though it's internal in itself, it is a production system. So how frustrating is it when you've got you know, your CICD pipeline is working like a well oiled machine, and you're like, this is amazing, And then you come to realize that suddenly one day something goes weird, some change was made, and you have no idea why it's failing, And wouldn't it be nice if we could also have observability into our CIICD pipelines. And so we are starting to see a movement in that direction, which is amazing because now we're no longer in the dark around around our CICD pipeline. So this is for me. I think this is a really fascinating topic. I dug into it a little bit a couple of years back. So I have I have this video course that I did with O'Reilly that it came out last year early last year, and as part of it, I'm like, hey, I want to do something on observability CICD pipelines. Is like just a short chapter on that. And then I'm like starting to do some research. I'm like, crap, there's like nothing on this, what the hell? And then I was I was messaging one of my friends in open Telemetry. We we're both maintainers of the Open Telemetry and User SIG and we've done a bunch of talks together. She's she's my hotel writer. Recently, we we we talked at keep Con together all the time. It's like it's a great partnership. And I'm messengering her. I'm like, you know, there's really not a lot of material out there on the observability of c ICD pipelines. She's like, that could be a really good talk topic. I'm like, that's so awesome. So we we put together we put together a talk I think it was I want to say it was I want to say it was cubecan Chicago in twenty twenty three that we we talked. We did that talk for Observability Day, and it's been nice to see that space evolve over time. I think there's now an official like CICD SIG within open Telemetry I want to say, so then there's actual like movement towards standardizing the observability around CICD, because at the time when we were we were doing the stuff, like when we were investigating, it was this mish mash of tools that were available. So like, for example, depending on what tool used for CICD. So Jenkins for example, had some observability capabilities built in, so it did emit some like hotel some Hotel signals. But then get Hub if you wanted to have like observable get hub actions, there's some like homegrown options. But now that means you're having to rely on someone else maintaining that if you want to have observable CICD pipelines, And then what if they stopped maintaining those get hub acts, are they discontinue? Yeah? Right, So like that that's a little bit scary if you want to rely on that get lab. At the time when we were investigating they they were starting they were having conversations around standardizing around that answable. At the time, I think they had like an hotel plug in so you can have like uh, when you're when you're doing your your ANTSPEL playbooks, you have some observability around that. And then there's there is I want to say, there was like an hotel. I forget now what it's called, but basically you could have hotel for Bash. And it was funny. We were we were talking about this at our talk and then later at that cupcon recent I met the person who who created that, Amy Toby from She used to work at Equinox, but she created that tool. I'm like, oh my god, like mega fangirling. I'm like, we talked about your. Tool and you're here. So when we talk about observability in the C I C D pipeline, what kind of metrics or insights are you looking to expose there? You're wanting to look at things like how long you're spending on on your builds, how long you're spending like at each stage of your pipeline, for example, identifying pipeline failures. That's another thing, because and and and being able to standardize it with open telemetry in particular, because I think that's the main thing too, is because like a lot of I would say, a lot of the industry has moved towards standardizing on open telemetry, making sure that then we're still continuing to speak that same language. Right, gotcha. Yeah, So then you still have access to all of those same insights, but you get it from your same observability tool that you get all of your other metrics. From exactly exactly. And and also like you know, you add distributed tracing into the into the mix, and all of a sudden, now you're also able to have this nice visualization of like your your build pipeline, right you can you can see like all of the stages nicely as well through through your observability vendor, which I think is really cool. I think I think every company I worked for had a pretty good hands on strategy for managing observability of their pipelines. Whenever it failed, someone got an email and then they went to the product and they clicked retry. So my favorite one is when you're in a feting and somebody's like, shouldn't this have been done already? And then I go and I check the pipeline and I'm like, well it should have, but it failed and so it didn't. And then. You didn't even have the emails. Yeah, that's step one. No, it's just it's too many emails and then I turn them off. It's like how every like messaging platform is really great until everybody's on there and then I get too many messages and then I and then I turn it off. It's like, oh, I mean, let's let's go the horror story route. So the one I know is we were using SPN at the time, so already a great start. Oh damn. And this was an upgrade from what my previous company had been doing, which was no source control for their source code. So this was yeah, this was like, wow, actually there is a company that knows how to do source control. Because I had been using get for a lot of years before that, and so I was shocked that this is what the state of the industry was. But the genius thing was that you couldn't figure out, like you knew who the committer was for each each failure, but you had no idea if it was like their fault. So the genius thing was that they converted it so that when an email went out, they tried to dynamically figure out who made the change that actually caused the problem, so that they could actually put the right people in the email. Like this was. This is not a trivial thing, especially if there's like you know, multiple things going on. You have two thousand engineers committing to the same mono repo. Yeah, I don't work there anymore. Did you take two thousand, two thousand engineers? Yeah? Yeah? Is that like real or is that hyper because that's a lot of engineers too. That's a lot of engineers. Yeah. I mean there's like I mean monolists and mono repos like this is the this is the Google way right there. I think that's the two trains of companies here, the ones that go well oiled monolith on one side and I mean right before well the oil model that there's like distributed monolith, and then on the other side is micro services everywhere and individual repository. So the closer you get to the monolith side, the more you have just engineers thrown at the problem. I think Google last check was like over one hundred thousand or something like. It's it's a massive number that these companies try to make happen, So two thousand is not that big in my in my experience, you know. You mentioning SVN. I worked at a place that used this version control tool called Harvest. I don't know if you beat me, because I don't know that one. I like, I have a long list of ones that I've seen and Harvest is not on that list. And it was like such a piece of crap. And it was one of those ones to where you had to like check in check out the file. So like while that file was checked check doubt, you know, no one, no one could touch it. And I mean it was better than I've worked at places where we had a network drive with the source code, pray pray that someone didn't overwrite your work. So at least by default, even on Windows, there's a little bit of conflict resolution. But before I convinced my company to move to GET, at the time they were using before SPN, they were actually using uh Perforce by Microsoft, and that didn't have file conflict resolution. So if two people committed a file at the same time, it would literally crash the entire database and you were not restoring your source code. Now, has anyone ever used ClearCase. You go to tell us that you have an hotel uh for for every single source codel? Oh my god, wouldn't that be something? But ClearCase I think they were bought by IBM at some point and it was the most ridiculous source control system ever because you had to write like configurations for being able to do the source control. So it's like akin to like you know on mainframes where you have to write the JCL to like run your code. It was kind of like that. It was like so archaic and like it hurt my brain and I'm like, I don't want to touch version control ever again after this experience. And then we moved to GET and I'm like, thank god, someone understands me. So, whenever we're talking about putting observability in a CICD platform, are there specific are there specific plug ins or specific tools that help you instrument this, or are we talking about just like using Bash and netcat to fire off data to an endpoint? So you if you're if you're c i CD tool supports it, then I would definitely say use whatever plugins are available the official plug ins. Use that because I think that'll give you some good insights. But barring that, there is, for example, there is a plug in for Java around uh, like specific for for Java builds. I believe that gives you some additional c I c D insights or stuff like around Maven and gradle uh. And then there's this, uh I'm trying to remember now what the hotel bash thing is called. I'm going to just google this quickly dash. Uh. I can't find the one I'm looking for. Oh yeah, open telementary cli hotel cli. That's I could imagine that that one is probably pretty popular because I mean, let's just be honest, most of your CICD stuff is just a Bash command. No, no, don't say that. I mean, barring that, you can definitely you can definitely use that. It's it'll at least give you something. What do you have to instrument like within the pipeline. So I think we talked a little bit about the let's say, the steps or the jobs or the workflows that you have and the amount of time that they're spending in each one of them, or like where the failures end up being, especially for I mean c ID pipelines are notoriously flaky in some way, like maybe the package repository is down, or the machine runs out of memory or gets gets killed because gethub thinks that you're running a crypto minor on there, or any number of other things. But like you know, one one step above that though, Uh, there's a lot that goes on during the CICD pipelines. And I can imagine there's tools like you have you mentioned a bunch like you know, say antsable, but obviously there's I A C stuff. Maybe you know you're building artifacts and whatnot. How hard is it to get into all those tools and get all that telementary data to actually you know, export it out somewhere, even if the platform supports them. So one of the things that we explored was there's this component of so for I don't know how familiar you are with with open telemetry. You're going to get a range of in the audience here, like there are some that are going to be experienced and on the other side may have no idea what you mean when you even say hotel all right. So, so basically open telemetry there's like a couple of parts. There's like the A P I and s d K, so use that to instrument use that to instrument your code. So you go into your Java and Python code or whatnot, and there's like a bunch of hotel languages that are supported, and you go in and you write the instrumentation. So that means like you're manually typing in like this is where I want to insert my traces, my logs, my metrics. There's also automatic instrumentation and where basically there's like essentially like a wrapper around your code that as long as you're using like certain like popular libraries like Python flasks for example, it'll it'll automatically generate some telemetry like some traces for for for your code there for any code like using using that library. But then there's another component in open telemetry, which is the Hotel collector. So that's a vendor neutral agent basically, and you can think of it as like an ETL tool, So it'll extract the telemetry from multiple sources. So the sources can be like your applicationmetry can be your infrastructure telemetry from various various things at the same time. And then there's processors which basically can you know, massage your data. You can add attributes, remove attributes. You can do some some transformations. So for example, you know you're using like underscores and you're naming conventions for your attributes, but you're you want to switch to like dot notation, use that, and you do. You do that in the collector and then it gets sent somewhere and you can send it to multiple somewheres at the same time with the collector. So basically this enables you to for example, if you don't have like an all in one tool that can ingest all all of your telemetry that you're collecting, then you can send it like to one tool for traces, one for logs, one for metrics. I don't recommend that ideally, you want everything sitting in the same in the same back end, because then you know you have like your single source of truth and all the related data. But if that's your if that's your setup, the open Plumetry Collector allows you to do that. Now I'm trying to think of where I was going with that when we were talking about the collector. You know, you can think about this for a moment. You know, just to sell hotel, you have three components here. You have your code that's emitting traces or data or logged and you have someplace where you want to see them, you know, maybe it's your grafhaunas, your elastic searches of the world, and you could have a custom protocol and for a long time you had a custom protocol, custom libraries on the software development side to get that log information from the source to the saying to the target where you wanted to go. And that means that every single time you want to change which provider you were utilizing, or which language or which team you're working on, you needed to find a new library for then the new thing that you were utilizing. Wouldn't it be great if it was some sort of standard that made this all easy. You know. That's hotel for me. Yeah, essentially, essentially. Yeah, well, you know, I can see one problem here is making sure that every single thing that you were utilizing could be supported. For instance, you mentioned Python flask. You know, it's great that there's a library out there that you can throw into Python flask or if it's supported by flask by default, and it just it just works because the output of those logs matches the standard. But I can imagine there's lots of tools that you could be using you brought up you know, bashed cli as one of them, which you know don't have these things by default. My example would be, you know, let's assume everyone's using open tofood today. What is what does that look like? You know it? Like? Does do these tools I see offer configuration to make it easy to do that or is it a matter of like having to parse uh you know output you know, raw text out and get it converted. Yes, now I remember I was going with that. Yeah, So, like, for example, one one thing that a lot of these tools have in common is that they met logs right, and so you can so the hotel collector has this component called the foul Logs receiver where it can basically just logs and it'll parse out your logs given like some rejects expressions, so that you can do something useful with the data and send that to you to your hotel backend. So that's where you, you know, things that aren't necessarily like have hotel baked in, you can kind of turn it otel esque and get it to send you send the hotel data that you need to hopefully troubleshoot a little bit better. So well, well, was about to make this joke, but I'm going to steal it from him because you I think fundamentally, it's like, oh, I have a problem. The solution I know it's to use rejects. And when you think that the solution is red jocks, and now you have two problems. I know, I always have to look up rejects anything. I mean, I think this is where log for JA the exploit ended up coming from, is having to parse literally log messages that we're coming from everywhere, and you could get it too, execute arbitrary code because of it, and you know there's a number of huge gotcha's there that if you'd not really experienced, especially parsing logs, that you'll end up in situations with your reject will like literally crash due to catastrophic backtracking. So that's that's something I hadn't thought of, like when we first started talking about this, Like I was thinking about like during the CICD process, you know, there's the build time, but then there's also like time associated with you know, with Terraform going off and doing terraform things, which is can be really significant at times because sometimes you know, Terraform decides to just completely delete and rebuild this thing from scratch. You're like, dude, I just I just wanted you to change this parameter, and so this could be a really good way of exposing that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's all of a sudden, like you're able to see the things that you weren't seeing before necessarily, right, So it's not just the troubleshooting troubleshooting when things go bad, but also like can I use this information now to further optimize? And even the other part too, which is like you think it's going okay and you find out otherwise, right, like behind the scenes, something very bad is happening that wouldn't have necessarily been exposed because there's like no catastrophic failure of your pipeline as far as you're concerned. It's completing and things are you know, getting delivered, built and whatever. That's one of my favorite phrases to hear is oh, that error message is okay. No. No, just the fact that you called it an error message makes it not okay. Can we agree on that? Yeah, exactly. So. I think because we're in the engineering discipline, you know, we have to be cognizant of this. And if we have new data available, new metrics that we're able to track. It's going to create a signal that caused us to make a change. And so one of the questions I want to ask you is do you feel like that Hotel has caused this shift in the mindset or focused areas that we've been dealing with in the last let's say, before up and to this point. So I'm not sure exactly how old it is. I want to say it's like five years now, although that maybe that it's a little bit short, not right. It started in twenty nineteen. Okay, great, So before that, you know, we didn't have it. It's like, has there been some fundamental shift with how we're tackling problems in the observability space? And you said shift left? So really development teams, engineering teams in general, compared to what we were doing beforehand. I mean, I think with Hotel, because so pre Hotel, like it was kind of a free for all, and there had been attempts at standardization, right because there was open census on the one side from Google and then open tracing from CNCF, and then like each vendor also had their own thing. And so I think there's a lot of time and effort expended into you know, maintaining these like instrumentation libraries. And now with Hotel, I think the conversation has shifted because we're like, Okay, this is the single standard. We all agree that it's going to work this way, and now we're not using like you know, now it's not a single organization or individual organizations using their brain power like I'm gonna say in air, it's wasting their time on instrumentation libraries, because we're all like as competitors working together towards a common goal. So now we're we're you know, combining brains towards a singular purpose, which means then we're we've essentially democratized data in the sense that now all of these observability tools are ingesting the same data. And so the differentiator is what do they do with your data in a way that is helpful to you? Right? And the answer to that question varies, right because what's meaningful to me might not be the same, it might not be as important to you. And I think the other thing that Hotel provides that open sends us and open Tracing didn't provide at the time was this unified view of TRACE's logs and metrics where now we have this ability. First of all, we have a standard for these three signals, but also we have correlation of the three signals. And I think the correlation is really important because I I for me, at the backbone of observability is the distributed trace, because it tells the story right end to end. And then you've got the supporting actors. We've got the metrics that give us an idea of thing like our CPU usage and are our RAM usage or how long we've spent on a particular process, or even having an idea of like hey, I sold like fifty telescopes last month compared to this month. And then our logs that are like our point in time indicators, right, and all these things separate are like yeah, that's that's cool, that's useful, but together like they paint that full picture. Right, we have this very rich understanding of what's happening with our systems. And I think that's that's the thing that observability brings us. And I'm going to borrow a definition of observability that I really like from Hazel Weekly, which is observability allows us to ask meaningful questions, get useful answers and act effectively on the information that we get. And I think we are we are getting to that point. I'm not. I don't think we're fully there in the same way that like you know, so many organizations back in the day and maybe even to a certain extent now, or like we're doing DevOps because we have a CICD pipeline. It's like we have observability because we are collecting metrics and sending them to Blah back in. It's like you're you're on your way. There. Yet I think the real thing there now is can we have an AI agent that will look through your logs and tell you what the problem is, because that's what I think I need. Yeah, And I think a lot of vendors and that is a fair ask, and I think a lot of vendors are moving in that direction. I mean, including Dino Trace. Dina Trace has an AI assistant named Davis AI. And well, I guess that's the success of hotel is because now you can shop around for the provider that offers you that exact benefit without feeling like you you lose your data or have to spend engineering time to actually adhere to whatever backwards protocol that that provider is offering. Yeah, but like biologists don't like paying for stuff. I know, I know what it what it means. Like when you say they don't like paying for stuff, what they mean is they don't like paying for stuff when that money has like clear price tags on it. But when there's suspect value associated with running it yourself on on prem hardware, then they have no problem shelling out you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for it. Well, that's true. I mean we can still have on site HPCs like that's that's fine, That's totally fine. Right, just throw Grafana in your in your cluster and you know, you can use your hotel collector and point it at that and you get all your data into whatever you're saying. You know that Graffana is pointed at and you're going to go. I mean sometimes, but not all the platforms that I use have like all these nifty tools you know built into them, like like the AWS, like Healthcare Pipeline platform does not have this stuff built in. It just sends everything a cloud watch and then it's like, well, good luck with that. I think you, I think you started that problem. Definition with the problem a ws. WS is listen, I'm still I'm still on my like drifting like a WS pay my bills please, So we can't we can't bad talk them because every once in a while they do throw some credits my way. So I love you as. And if you stick around at the end of the episode, I actually have something to say about a WS credits. So you have a coupon to send me. I love coupons. Well, Jillian, unfortunately you're going to be excluded from this. I wonder why a host of this podcast is going to be excluded from a giveaway we're having. Oh okay, that's. Damn it. Fine. So one of the things I want to dig into, like I see the benefits of US, where I struggle with implementation. No, you know, like the developers I support, they see the benefits of this, but only after I build the whole thing for them and show it to them. So what are some ideas you have to like get them excited to kind of like throw a few hours of their own time towards getting this implemented. I think I think one way to be effective with this is making developers responsible for their code and prod like right after, right after it's deployed. Align the ascentives. Nothing tells a story like staring at a screen at two am, knowing other reason you're there. Yeah, exactly exactly. I think another thing on exactly right other thing I was going to say, you know, back to what I was saying in the beginning about qa's using that telemetry also during the testing phase to be able to identify bugs in testing making basically making telemetry quality gait. So before going into QA, you it's a it's basically mandatory to have instrumented your code. Otherwise you don't, you don't pass go. Basically that's another that's another way to incentivize and and I think one way to think about it, and I think this is where people have have a bit of a hard time like wrapping their brains around it. Uh. I see instrumenting code as no different than like, you know, we're writing print statements all the time, we write log statements. So like you're already writing logs, So do it the open telemetry way. You're already like that's part of your mindset. So adding traces here and there isn't a terrible idea, especially if it can help you as well as a developer debug your own code, and I think that's another value add It's like, oh my god, I have more insight when I'm writing my code to understand why this like weird era keeps happening like every fifty runs of the program, Like wouldn't that be nice? I think you could put your perspective though, on the controversial side, right, Like, I mean, maybe there are the engineers out there that they don't write any bugs, there's no production, never goes down, there's no incidence whatever, and then and then you know, this isn't a value added activity. So you know, if they're out there and they're thinking to themselves, all my code is absolutely perfect and I'm not accountable for it. I don't know if there can be another argument. I know, well, what can you do to question perfection like that? You did say something interesting though, which is basically what you're advocating for here, which is shift left on telemetry. And one of the complaints that I've heard from uh my collities across the industry have been, well, there's like shift left testing and shift left telemetry and shift left security, and now we're doing infrastructure as code instead of release engineering I mean at some point, like if everything is shift left, there's there's nothing left, Like everything is now on the right, right. Right. I mean, yeah, you're right, but like I guess the way I'll look at it is, but if you're like, if you don't shift left, then it's going to be so much more painful after. Oh, for sure, there's no question. And I don't I don't know. Maybe maybe it's me, like my personality. I like learning new tech. So it's like you got to learn you know, terror form, Yay, that's awesome, you get to learn doctor, yay. Cool. I think I think honestly, for this to succeed, you almost you have to come in with the right mindset, and and there's no better way to do that than with like fresh hung blood, right. The new folks coming into the industry like that, that is the way. You know that, that is the way that it works. But for the older folks you're like, oh, I'm telling I mean they I'll have to do all this extra crap. Oh damn it. I like how you stopped after a terraform and doctor and you didn't say, oh, we have to use Kubernetes. Yeah, like Kubernettes and I have a love hate relationship. That was a given, like who doesn't love Kubernetes. So I mean that's an interesting perspective that those that are more experienced are likely I don't I want to say that they're you know, thinking the wrong direction or have the not the right mindset, but they're focused in the areas where they think it has the most value. Like maybe the experience helps tell them what they need to do more effectively. And if you are looking at something and say, oh, well, I don't know how to test this effectively, and I don't know how to make this is super secure, and I don't know where my bugs are going to be, then you do want to take all of these steps, at least a little bit in each one of these directions. And that isn't to say you need to design the perfect platform, but having the logs end up on an ephoremal like on hard disk of an ephemeral compute environment, like isn't going to help you when there's a problem in that thing crashes. Yeah, very true, Very true. Yeah. I you know, I think with this kind of shift left it like for those of us who've been in the industry long enough, I think embracing that is born out of one of two things, extreme trauma for your like oh my god, I can't take this anymore, and and the other is just like pure curiosity like ooh this looks really cool, and like having an open mind. And I honestly, I think the most successful techies are the ones who are open to change, open to like what what the new tooling brings. And maybe maybe it's like, oh, this thing doesn't do exactly what I wanted to do. And then this was like where startups are born, right. I mean, Krubernetes has got a whole ecosystem around it because of I guess it does stuff, but like some stuff is kind of gnarly to do, so let's make things easier. And I think that sort of thing drives innovation. At the end of the day, are you are. You happy where we're at, Like do you feel like that there's like just one more thing, like get the observability done in CICD pipelines and then everything will be great? Or do you see like there's a concrete objective next step to get to the you know, the pinnacle of perfection and observability. Ooh, that's a great question. Actually it's a topic for a talk that I'm giving next week. Out of observability, Dan like, leg it, what is it? All right, I'm gonna plug it. So basically, the ideas, why does observability have to exist within the traditional confines of tech? Why don't we bring observability and open telemetry to things like the recruitment process, Like you know, it's it's a yucky jobs market out there, and the recruiting process has always been painful. You never know, you know, you send out a resume, you don't know if you're going to get a response, and when you do it might be a while. And then when you finally get that interview, it's it might be like a chunk of time between interviews. Wouldn't it be nice if organizations put observability in their recruitment process, for example, so that they have an understanding of like how long it takes in each stage of the interview process. Wouldn't it be cool to have a distributed trace that represents the end to end recruitment process. And we can take this to like several under several other industries, like even the healthcare industry. Look at hospital r waiting times. Understanding you know what if what if you do open telemetry, apply open telemetry and observe ability to uh to ers where you're like, okay, now you have an idea of, like what the workflow is from from intake all the way to getting treatment. You have an idea of like the types of cases that get seen faster versus the ones that don't. You can have a better understanding. You have better data on racial profiling. For example, wait times the amount of time you know first to get seen, to get like imaging done, to get the results of the imaging. So I feel like the sky is the limit, and I think it's I would say easier. I'm going to say in air quotes and in larger organizations that have access to to be like monetary access to to be able to like you know, purchase a subscription from a SaaS vendor or or like run a homegrown solution for observability. But I think I think it can open up some really cool possibilities around that. See, I had a secret fear You're going to say, government oversight. Why would that be relevant at all? Yeah? So I know, but I think you touched on something. Yeah, well okay, yeah, so we won't we won't go there, uh I do. I do want to touch on something. I think you you added a nuance too, which is that the value that could be captured here is actually directly related to the business and not arbitrary tech metrics about your running service like how many two hundreds and three hundred do you have or how long it's running, but maybe the value to the actual customer and or the pain they're suffering through the you know, user experience of your UI because you you automatically coded it using one of these new vibe coding auto creation UIs, and so you know, yeah, I think it's a really good point, and like this could be applied to to every industry, not just ones that are hard in tech. You know, how are you collecting metrics today? How are you actually evaluating these things? Don't you want data? And now I'm starting to wonder all of those smaller companies that are between zero and let's say two or five employees, you know, what are they doing. I know that like maybe the last thirty years was all about digital transformation, and I still know companies are hiring digital transformation consultants to make this happen. And I think you've hit on like, really the why which is you're missing the data? You're like, you're not collecting it, and this, this process, this standard is what's going to help you achieve that. Yeah? Yeah, and I mean unfortunately, like we speak in data right, like show me, show me the metrics, and then tie the metrics to the money, right. Well, Jerry Maguire reference there, show me the money. Yeah, yeah, I do. I do want to share this because I I do think this list is quite ridiculous. So you're a CNCF ambassador, you have a podcast, you're an author, I wrote a bunch of other things down here. But I see, like, you know what conference speaker, right, what is there still some milestone you're hoping to achieve next after this that you're you know, currently focused on. You're like, no, I've done enough things, you know, I feel accomplished enough. Oh well, I would love to, like someday, keynote at a cupe gun. I got my first keynote last year at KCD in Potho, Portugal, and that was like, that was super exciting. I've never been asked a keynote. I think I think the ultimate experience would be a keynote on a at a really large conference that would be super fun. I did also find out this one's up there on the list. I found out last week that I'll be going to keep Con Japan, which is super exciting because it's the first ever keep conjup and I've never been to Japan. And I'll be giving a talk on basically what we can do to make our observability greener. And it's, uh, it's it's a follow on, if you will to a talk that I'm giving next week in London with my same co speaker, Nancy Chohan, where we it's the talk is next week is called how Green is my Open Telemetry Collector? And it talks about like what you can do to start looking at at optimizing your hotel collector to make it, you know, more more environmentally friendly. Do do you feel lucky now that there is another piece of technology out there that is just so much worse for the environment that no one's paying attention to any sort of problem with story extra data I mean storing the data. I mean now that that's a trivial matter as far as impact goes. It's funny that, like, you know, I almost feel I feel guilty, like working in this industry to be honest, because like I've always, like since I was a kid, I was like really into like environmental stuff, and you know, like I bring a reusable cup to like Starbucks, or like I love bubble Tea, so my local bubble tea place, I'll bring a reusable cup. And you know, I've done the reasonable shopping bags for like twenty years, and yet I'm in an industry that is inherently terrible for the environment. You know, data centers I think contribute to like one or one to two percent of of like the world's greenhouse gas emissions. And then you add AI into the mix, and it's like ouch observability, I mean the fact that we're trying to understand our systems better through observability. Well, guess what, You're emitting a crap ton of data, So your systems are are expending more energy in doing so, and then your your observability tooling and ingesting the data are also emitting a crop ton of energy to do that. So it's like we're you know, we're adding to the problem. But then I also feel like technology can solve the problem, Like you know, those same AI agents that that do expend a lot of energy can also helpless further optimize our you know, our energy usage to lessen our carbon footprint. I think it's all that will be a balance. Well, there's the paradox there, and I don't remember the philosopher's name. Hopefully someone else does. If you increase the efficiency or you optimize it, you end up with more usage because it becomes cheaper and more so in the end. So that's not Unfortunately, that's not a path forward that I'm willing to I'm willing to bet on. But like I'm still bringing reusable like paper bags to the grocery store for my bread and vegetables, like I am, I am just as bad, uh know, put it in a backpack and no plastic bags or anything. And I've still got the same paper bag that my wife is like, why are you still reusing that? Carry stuff in? I always forget mine. So I ended up making it a trip out of the store with thirty seven things in my arms. Oh yeah, backpack. I used to buy the bag. It's ridiculous. At this point, I have like a closet full of them. I'm like, yeah, just with you should donate them to some other people, like just or sell them right outside the store. Like just see like when Will comes out of the store and he's carrying a. Lot of things, be like, hey, ooh, clever. I don't know if that's legal not for resale? Yeah, probably not, damn it. I think you just have. To be fifty feet away from the door, and by that time I'm a very motivated customer of your product. Anyway, if you haven't, if you haven't gotten to your motive transportation after fifty feet, I mean, I I. Worry what's going on there? I will ask maybe you can spoil it a little bit for us? What as you mentioned data centers as not being that environmentally friendly? Is it? Is it the data storage? Is it? The compute? Is it you know, memory usage? Is it? The menu? The hardware manufacturing that's doing it? So the building new data center, like do you know like which area is contributing or is the most problematic for us? I don't know specifically, but I would gather like the power consumption alone of data centers is huge and puts like a massive strain on on power grids. So there's definitely I would say, I would guess. Now, don't don't quote me on that, but I would guess that that's that would definitely eat into things a. Fair bit from some of the stuff I've heard. It's the cooling mhm. I could I could believe that. Yeah, dealing with extra heat is a huge challenge. But if it's the energy, then what we have to make sure realistically, is it the energy we're creating is green? Just build more nuclear power plants always the solution it is. I can tell Warren Lust to disagree. Oh no, no, no, no, I no, no, I absolutely agree there is no better form of energy, even though there's all these problems with I say nuclear, but you know we're saying fission right because we're not at the fusion stage yet. And there's just a lot of arguments where like what do you do with the wastewater? I'm like, compare that to the mining of the raw materials and the manufacturing of solar panels, or the actual damage to like my migratory birds for flight pass for wind turbines, and not to mention the non renewable ones, like you know, it's just so absurd to me. Sorry, that's that's my own personal rant. Just cancel, just cancel all non commercial aircraft. There should be no private jets. You know that will solve a majority of the world's problems from there. True, I can't disagree. It's not going to impact my life. I'll tell you that for sure. Damn it, I'm gonna cancel my Gulf Stream. Order right. Hold on b RB. Yeah. But now that's like a few minutes ago, you brought up a really interesting point about using hotel metrics in other parts of the business, and like immediately my mind exploded with like ten different things in the company I work for right now, I'm like, holy shit, Like they they totally need to see this on a on a metrics dashboard. And it's like, you know, you mentioned recruiting process, but I'm thinking like the sales pipeline or the implementation pipeline whenever we implement someone onto our product, the employee review process, what stage that's at, Like there's just so many different things where like oh wow, even Jira, like where are things stalling at moving tickets from from new to done? Yeah, yeah exactly, or like onboarding new employees. It's such like such a pain no matter where you go, there is not a streamlined onboarding process right. Time to first commit. That's a big metric for me, when I bring somebody on, like how long before their first commit goes to production? How are you measuring that manually at this point? Is it? Because there's just not a scale that you would need to make it like you're not hiring that many people like your turn rates you know low, and so you know, I guess that maybe the counter argument, why collect the data when the manual process is still sufficient? Yeah? For that for that specific example, time to first commit, you know, it would be hard to justify automating it unless you already had everything in place and it was just building the dashboard that shows it. So that one hopefully it's a little value. Like if you're putting on that many new employees where you have to build a dashboard for that, maybe you should be looking at metrics of like what am I doing to piss my employees off and make them leave? Maybe that's a better metric for that scenario. I mean, I think you're onto something there, because if you're if you're pushing the data towards to them and they have to now consume technical dashboards. I think what we're saying is we're hoping that by doing this, we're changing the role from directly hands on to someone that's more understanding of what like of a knowledge management process is in that area. So you know you're talking about HR, but not so it's not HR anymore. It's a new kind of human resources where it's already being managed. Now it's about improving the process and that's a whole other step above it. Yeah, we don't have hright now, we have people business partners. M Well yeah, you laugh. But I do think that there is something like all labels are wrong, some of them are useful. And I think if you call it people, they are more two things happen. They do think about their leaders, like how to build leaders and whatnot, and then more importantly about the careers of these people rather than as you know, fundamental resources like your turn rate is important and whatnot. And I think that's that's something that's only happened recently. See, I don't know about calling HR people. I mean, clearly they're people, right, but like they're not. They're not robots yet, Like they're not there for the employees. They're there to protect like the company. So this idea that they're sure for you in your career is maybe. We don't Maybe I'm going to disagree with that. Well, that's the point. So if this organization is there to protect the company, then why of course the company would want to be making decisions based off of a metrics and a framework that is collecting actual data about the organization before making those decisions. And there was something there was a research study done like ten or twenty years ago that was a consult came in and had asked, like all the executives of an organization to make a guess about how successful their sales will be over the next couple of quarters. And they were all like, of course, super confident about whatever it is that they were doing, and just absolutely wrong in a lot of ways. And I think you see the same thing over and over again across the field. So like a majority of people think they're better than average, which is statistically not possible. And I think this is where, you know, having the additional data just goes to show you that you're making more accurate decisions no matter what they are. True story, Will just can't wait to get back to to or get to work so he can start implementing these in his least favorite department. I am Hotel. Everything that's right Hotel everything. So, speaking of which, how did you end up as part of the Hotel sid group? Oh? Well, so, first of all, I got into Hotel because of my previous job at Lightstep, which was my first job as a developer advocate. So before that, I'd been doing a mix of like individual contributor work and management work. I decided at that point at my previous job that I'm done with management. Thanks, but no thanks, had had a good run, but we dine and But so the job before light Step, when I was a manager, right, i'd been I was managing two teams thirteen people total, and I was managing a platform engineering team and an observability team. Platform engineering team was a Hashi Corp stack and I knew Kubernetes and they were using Nomad. So it was like, great, now I have to learn a thing that I don't know, which my brain was like yay, fun stuff. And also this observability team, which I was new to observability. I've been dabbling. Like my understanding of observability came from like reading Charity Majors tweets, and you know, my thought was, well, I have to do right by my team, by my organization and if I'm going to lead an observability team at the organization, and we were an observability practices team, So defining the observability strategy at the company two cows, which is that two Cows if you remember the yeah, yes, yes, but not doing that. It was not the download of free Windows software anymore. They're a domain wholesaler when I joined, and so as part of it, I'm like at the time, I already had like this blog on Medium where I've been using the blog to like basically learn in public, right document document cool things that I've discovered and share them with the world, because my personal pet peeve is a lot of stuff is documented very poorly in tech. People assume that you know what they're talking about, and it makes me think of those math textbooks where they're like, we'll leave the proof to the reader, and it's like, no, show me how the proof works, because I have no freaking clue. This is you know how I feel with regards to most technical blogs, so you know mine are in excruciating detail. So I basically thought, well, I'm gonna I'm going to learn nomad in public. I'm going to learn observability in public. Blog blog blog as I'm as I'm doing my job, and then one of my blog posts got the attention of my former manager at Lightstep and they reached out to me and said, hey, how would you like to do this for a living? I'm like, what you could do this for a living? And when I started on the job, they said, you know, it would be cool to like contribute to open telemetry. And I had been in like, you know, super enterprise corporate life pretty much up until that point, where like closed source all the things, like the most open source stuff we did was like Java and Maven and everything else was like there better be, like, you know, a support plan for this open source software, otherwise we're not going to buy it, which otherwise we're not going to use it, which I understand, like large enterprise, they got to cover their asses. But so that was my first forayan to open source. So I first started just contributing to the hotel docs and then there was an opening in the Hotel End User SIG and the end Users SIG basically connects end users with each other with an open telemetry, but we also relay feedback from the end users to the open tele telemetry maintainers. So there was there was a gap in leadership because one of the one of the original founders of the SIG had changed jobs moved away from Open Telemetry. So, you know, my my manager at the time, asked if I wanted to step in and help out, and that's that's how I got involved. And at the time it was a working group and then it was converted into into a SIG, And we've done a bunch of things to like just really elevate elevate the hotel community as part of the SIG. So we do a bunch of regular things, like we have this series called Hotel Me where we interview one of our end users and they share how they use open Telemetry in their own organizations. We have Hotel and Practice, which is basically it's a meetup style thing where you know, you have a cool presentation on something hotel, like, come on and and and present to us, like you know, you want to test out a talk that you want to give, like, use us as your guinea pig, and we do them as live streams and then the recordings are available afterwards for folks to consume on the on the Hotel YouTube channel we've run. We've partnered with the other SIGs to run end user surveys to and understand like, for example, the first one we did was on the Hotel Collector. The collector folks wanted to partner with us to understand how how end users use the collector to help inform the direction of the collector, like what what features are most important to the user so that they can you know, push forward with those as part of the Collector's roadmap. So that's effectively how I got involved with Hotel. So most of my work is in the sig I do. I'll pop in every so often and update docs and read mes, especially like when I'm doing research for my my technical talks and I'm digging into a topic and I'll notice, oh there's a gap here. I do two things. One is like I'll write a blog post on it because I love to do that. But then the other thing is like I want to be a good open source citizen and also like I want the docs, i e. The source of truth to have the information that I also make available in my blog so so that you know, we have that completeness. And I encourage everyone in open source to do that as well. You know, like so many vendors have wonderful blog posts out there on observability, like on on Open Telemeture, and I think it's great. But if you're noticing a gap in the docks, like take take the time to to update update those docks, update those read mes, because it'll just save a lot of people a lot of a lot of effort. Because the docs are the place I think where most people start start their journey, and then they'll you know, move to the blogs and the YouTube videos and whatnot for added information. Yeah, for sure. And it's like writing docks is really hard, so there's there's always room for improvement, and especially for people who are just starting their career, like that's such a great way to just start getting getting some experience, you know, because you read the docs, you try it, it doesn't work, you go off, you cuss and rant for a while, and then you come back and then you try it again, and eventually it kind of like clicks and like making that poor request back to the docks is a great way to start building a portfolio of expertise that will ultimately help you move on to bigger and higher paying roles big time. I think writing is probably one of the best things you can do for your career or like whatever, whatever the thing is that you do better with video or audio or like whatever. Just but just start to get your own voice and perspective out there. I don't think we should be discouraging people from entering the industry. I'm saying they have to write it. I mean, I don't know about other people, but I became an engineer because I wanted to just solve equations all the time. That that was my goal. And now I don't do anything with numbers or math in any way, and I spend it all the time going to conferences at writing writing books like Adriana. Yeah that's my life. Yeah. Well, communication is such a key part of being a good engineer, and I think it's it's underplayed a lot. But when it comes to writing, I know a lot of people with engineering oriented minds either aren't good writers or don't consider themselves good writers. And lately I've been using AI so I'll write something up and then copy paste it into AI and just have it just give me some feedback on it. And I found that to be really helpful. Yeah, I think I think it's a good starting point. My caution on that personally is I find AI. You know, it's like you use with hair, use with care. AI can take away your own like personal writing voice. So that that's just my my personal take on it. True story. Yeah, I don't think you can have the AI just like straight up right stuff for you or it is like very bland, like very very very bland. But I think you can use something like most of the grammar check tools all incorporate AI. Now, So if you're using like Grammarly or pro. Writing Aid or something and you're worried about punctuation or spelling, that that would be me. That would be me worried about the punctuation and the spelling. It's not like listen, it's just not going to happen if there's not some type of tool out there, or unless I hired an editor, which like I'm not going to do for a blog. Post, like nobody's going to do that. But I do think these you know, these tools do catch quite a bit. But I agree, and you know, like I'll whenever I'm questioning, you know, the grammar on something, I'll throw that into AI too, you know, to verify either I'm heinously wrong or like hey, I got it right, Yay. Do you have a tool of choice for your work? For me, I'll use a Microsoft co Pilot every so often. So like for my talks, for example, I have like talk mascots so on. On my slides, I'll have like a theme a theme animal. So for example, for my one of my talks next week, the the Green Collector Talk, we have a polar bear wearing a green recycling t shirt throughout. So Copilot generates some some fun, some fun animations, and you know, sometimes I'll ask it to like I did ask it when I was researching a talk to like write me some terraform code to do X, which was helpful, but then it hallucinated and generated me a actually it was in terraformos pullumi. It generated me a Pulumi function that didn't exist, and that kind of pissed me off for an hour. I'm like, where is this bloody function? Did not exist? But yeah, yeah, that's that's that's that's the main one that I use. My dad swears by perplexity. He says it's quite good. I've never tried it, but he swears by it. At least one of your parents using a modern tools. Oh my God. My dad is a retired software architect and he like learned Rust for fun two years ago. He's seventy two, and he's like, yes, I'm writing my own rust crates to do like some performance testing on some code that I wrote, and I'm using statistical analysis methods blah blah blah. I'm like, dude, I learned this stuff in university and I don't remember a bit of it. And he's like, you know, refreshing his knowledge on this stuff. I'm like, do you. Right on? Well, this feels like a good time to move over to Picks. What do you think? Yes, let's do it. Warren over to you. Well, I knew it was going to meet me first, so I was actually surprised that you weren't just going to immediately go to me. So yeah, I tried to change it up, Like man, I always pick on Warren. So well, it's okay. I'm always prepared, so it works out. So today I'm going to be super lame, but we're going to have a survey that's going to be posted on a venture in DevOps dot com slash survey at because I have them. I'm going to give away five awards of aws credits based on the responses. I don't know how many of them out yet. We're going to see based on the responses, and I'm not sure where the questions are yet, but the survey is going to be there. I assure everyone. Right on, that'll be cool. I'm looking forward to hearing from folks on that. And I mean, you get in AWS credits for it, so it's going to be a little incentive to go into it. Yeah, right, who doesn't love cloud credits? Right for sure? Andriana should bring us a pick today. A thing that I really like. It's an activity. I'm a rock climber, so I love bouldering. I think you know, if if if you have kids that like to scramble up things, highly recommend taking your kids bouldering, and also as an adult try it out. That is my pick for you, and as a personal thing. Every every city that I visit, you know when when, whether it's on vacation or at a conference, I always make it a point of checking out the local bouldering gym. Bouldering is a little bit scary for those who aren't familiar with rock climbing because there's like the rope climbing and then there's bouldering, which is like your up I want to say, like ten feet up, no rope, big fluffy mat at the bottom. You can still get injured. I sprained my ankle twice, the same ankle from just a bad fall. But it is great fun, especially if you're looking to just like step outside of you know, whatever it is that you do is your your day job. It's a great way to just decompress because you've got nothing better to do. But you know, focus on getting to the next move and going up the wall, and you can't your your mind can't flinch, can't get distracted because otherwise you fall. It's very therapeutic, Jillian, are you back with us? Okay, So I'm gonna pick the newest Expeditionary Force book. It's a science fiction series. That's like, unlike most science fiction, it's kind of campy and it kind of like goofy and silly and doesn't have a lot of horror or gore or things that I don't like reading, which is very hard to find in science fiction I found because a lot of them have just stuff that I don't want to read about. So that's an Expeditionary Force by Craig Allenson. It's probably one of my favorite science fiction series right on. Cool. I'm going to go with two picks this week. One, there's a guy, he's a kid, Let's be honest, he's a kid. I think he's probably mid twenties. His name is Dan Coe, and he's really fascinating just his take and like the amount of work and effort he's put into studying like philosophy and like the meaning of life and your your purpose, and you're calling like really extraordinary stuff for someone who's so young. He just released a new book yesterday called Purpose Profit two that he's giving it away for free on his website, the danco dot com d A. N. Koe and started reading it. But he's written so much other great stuff following him on x His stuff there has been so cool. I'm just gonna go right ahead and recommend his book before I've even finished reading it. I just feel like the quality is going to be there for anyone who's interested in reading that. And then the second pick I have so there's a really like humiliating story I'll go with first. To set the stage for this, Like I spent my youth going to a lot of heavy metal concerts and playing guitar in heavy metal bands, and so it turns out that because of all the headbanging involved, you can actually get whiplash. And so I have like the long term effects of whiplash from my taste in music, and it's I've had lots of had some different problems with it over the years. But recently I got this thing called an iron neck to like strengthen my neck muscles. And so that's my second pick. It's like this really super cool looking head gadget that you put on your head. Definitely want to you're the kid with the helmet, that's what you write, right, Yeah, It's a total fashion statement, absolute fashion statement. So if you're just looking to like have you painted it? Like, if you want to like either improve your neck muscles or just improve like your social credibility in life, you want to go streatting around town with the iron neck on. But yeah, right, we're. Gonna have to see this the whole next episode. I think it's just gonna have to be a deal. Deal the next fashion statement. Right, So yeah, those are my two picks. Dan Coe's new book at the danco dot com and iron Neck and and like The reason I bring up the iron neck is even if you don't have whiplash from spinning your youth headbanging I'm sitting at a desk all day long hunched over your keyboard also has negative impact on your posture and your next strength. So this is a way to help counteract that so that whenever you do make it to old age, that you still have the ability to you know, stand upright or even perhaps look at sky. I think I'm gonna need to see some research on that, all right, man, I don't know. I think it's a pretty bold claim to old age. I don't know about that. I want like a standing ovation from the universe if I make it past sixty. So there's a podcast that I've been listening to called Wiser than Me. It's with Seinfeld actress Julia Louis Dreyfus, where she basically interviews all these like older ladies like you know, high profile older ladies like Jane Fonda, Amy Pan and it's been it was recommended to me by actually one of my podcast guests. It is great fun right on cool. And then there's your podcast as well, right, the Geeking Out podcast that is correct. Yes, just look up geeking Out with Adriana Villela, because otherwise if you just look up geeking out, it's gonna like give you like so many different listings on on the various podcasting apps. So geeking Out with Adriana Villela do that search term. You should be able to find the correct one. And there's a copy Vada on the on on the cover art. So awesome. Adriana, thank you so much for being on the show. This has been fun. Thanks for having me anytime, come on back anytime that you want. Warren Chilean as always, thank you both for being here. Thank you was fun. And to all of our listeners, thank you for listening to the show, and be sure and check out the website for the survey to get your elf some AWS credits. Alright, cool, we'll see you guys next week. M hmm.